By Howard Fischer
Mail | X: @azcapmedia

PHOENIX — State lawmakers have approved a measure to allow any lawmaker who chairs a legislative committee to issue a subpoena — and send out a sheriff’s deputy to arrest anyone who refuses to submit to questioning or produce documents.

It would spell out that all testimony offered to any legislative panel would be presumed sworn, setting the stage for bringing perjury charges against anyone who is accused of lying.

But the Republican sponsor of House Bill 2824 says it’s necessary to ensure lawmakers can get answers they need, and promptly — primarily from members of the executive branch that currently is run by a Democratic governor.

Less clear is whether Katie Hobbs, that Democratic governor, will pen her approval to a measure that could force her agency heads and others to testify under threat of arrest.

Rep. Tony Rivero who crafted the measure, said the new powers are justified.

“I’m a believer in our system of government,” said the Peoria Republican. “I believe that there’s three branches of government.”

But Rivero told Capitol Media Services the Legislature, as “the supreme lawmaking body” in the state, has a special role.

“In order for us to be effective lawmakers, we need an executive branch that’s responsive to our requests,” he said.

Rivero said, time is of the essence.

“We’re in two-year terms,” he said.

“I don’t want to waste any time,” he continued. “And, in conversations with other members, the bureaucracy hasn’t been as responsive as we’d like them to be.”

Rivero acknowledged there already is a procedure for compelling testimony or production of records. That, however, requires a majority vote of either the House or Senate to hold that person in contempt. That allows the sergeant at arms of go out and arrest that person.

But he said that isn’t enough.

“I think we need to have a more efficient process,” Rivero said.

He said that means giving those who chair committees — who are currently all Republicans because they have the majority in each chamber — that power without having to get approval of or buy-in by the majority.

“I think we can get more direct responses,” Rivero said. “And it will shorten the time that it takes to get information or have people testify.”

What it also would do is avoid what happened in 2021 when Senate President Karen Fann launched a probe of the 2020 election results after Joe Biden outpolled Donald Trump in Arizona. His victory was aided by the fact that Maricopa County, where Republicans outnumbered Democrats at that time by more than 100,000, gave Biden 45,000 more votes than Trump.

Fann, a Prescott Republican, said she wasn’t trying to overturn the election but simply was responding to various concerns and claims about the accuracy of the results.

GOP senators issued a subpoena for the state’s largest county to produce all 2.1 million ballots cast, along with the actual tabulation machines and other equipment. When the supervisors didn’t comply, that led to a Republican-sponsored resolution to hold them in contempt.

That never happened when Republican Sen. Paul Boyer refused to provide the necessary 16th vote for the contempt citation, saying he preferred to work out the problems with the county on a more cooperative basis.

If Rivero’s measure had been law, Fann wouldn’t have needed the consent of the majority of the Senate to enforce the subpoena. But he said his legislation had nothing to do with what happened in 2021.

Rivero also said he’s not concerned giving subpoena power to individuals who chair committees — and, with the change, the opportunity to actually send out a sheriff’s deputy to enforce it, all without having to get the buy-in of a majority of other legislators — would lead to abuse by any individual.

“We all have to work with each other,” said Rivero who, as chairman of the House International Trade Committee would be able to issue subpoenas and demand people show up to testify or bring documents he wants.

“If they’re not collaborating with members of their party, from the opposite party, they’re not going to be in a good situation,” he said.

And if he’s wrong?

“We’ll address it.’’

The House-passed measure picked up an additional provision when it was reviewed by the Senate.

Sen. Jake Hoffman added language to say that any testimony that is part of any legislative proceeding — including regular committee meetings — “shall be sworn testimony under the penalty of perjury.” The Queen Creek Republican said the change is needed.

“Quite frankly, I don’t believe that you should be able to come down to the Legislature and lie to us without there being a consequence,” he told colleagues, though he offered no specific examples.

Sen. Mitzi Epstein said she agrees with the concept but wondered if it goes far enough.

“How do you feel about people who are behind the dais speaking lies into the microphone?” the Tempe Democrat asked Hoffman, referring to lawmakers themselves who, as members of the committee, make statements and pronouncements during hearings.

Hoffman agreed no one should be lying. But he said there’s a need to specially call out those lobbying specific legislation.

“If you come down to testify before this committee essentially to influence the political process and to influence the force of government, either in your favor or protect yourself from it, you should not be able to lie to members of the Legislature when you do so,” Hoffman said.

Epstein said that should be a directive given to all when they start making pronouncement.

“Nobody should be speaking a lie into a microphone,” she said. “If you’re not sure of your source, then maybe you should specify that, whether you are a legislator who is trying to influence how our government works or a person who comes to testify.”

The measure now goes back to the House to approve the Senate-added changes.